Originally by: PhantomVyper

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Originally by: Bad Liz

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Thanks for the advice Viper, I've already been there and know what I'm talking about - its far from anything like what those ships used to work like. Any other jems you have while forum trolling or is that it? Hate people who's existence is based off making asinine comments to other people's posts.

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Are the Curse / Pilgrim worse than they where before? Yes they are, no one is saying otherwise.

Are you actually saying that you can't find a Curse / Pilgrim setup that can perform in a similar faction as it did before the patch?

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Originally by: Delnas

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Edited by: Delnas on 01/08/2007 13:12:02
Ouch. Logged on this morning, noticed I had 12 hours left till I could fly Amarr Recons. It was a very good moment. ^_^ Then the new guy in our corp broke the news that NOS has been utterly nerfed to hell. Imagines of useless Curses & Pilgrims filled my mind, all being trashed.

Went to the Dev Blog to see what the big mess is all about. Does not look all that bad. I'm not a pilot of a Curse yet, but it seems to me I can just run my MWD to kill my cap, as I'd be doing most of the time anyway, all the while killing there cap. Once I kill both our CAP, switch to a neut, hit my Cap Booster, and finish the job. Not a big deal, even if there are not other targets around to NOS after my primary goes down.

Not much of a nerf. Just an alternation.

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Originally by: PhantomVyper

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Originally by: Slade Bolgard

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One of the ironies, that someone commented on way back in the threat, is I primarily use my Pilgrim to kill Asia farmers in zero sec. Works pretty well for taking out PvE fitted Ravens.

I guess as long as the changes balance it out for everyone - Amarr loses, while Asia farmers win. I guess the noobs who cried for a nerf win too, because the price of ISK will probably go down too.

Yay.

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Strange then that I can't seem to find a single solo kill of yours involving a Pilgrim...

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Originally by: PhantomVyper

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Originally by: Slade Bolgard

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Not that strange - I usually run with a 2-4 man crew when I'm on farmer duty. I'm pleased you spent the time looking, though. Grab me some coffee while you're at it.

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Not a problem, I'm bored at work so don't really have anything better to do atm.

So for some positive input, how exactly does this change affects your gang running ship then? Because most ppl complaining about the Curse / Pilgrim are doing so in regard to their solo abilities.

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Originally by: Matroshka

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I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't.

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Originally by: Maximus Caelum

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W00T. I'm glad you're nerfing nos. I hate it. Go go cap guns.

But seriously: Dont do a Sony, listen to your players.

The stacking penalty idea sounds good. Coulnt you just add it in the missiles/guns limitations where you can have a max number on your ship?

my 2 cents.

Max

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Originally by: PhantomVyper

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Originally by: Hammar Wolf

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Well there are several problems. For one the pilgrim can only take on caldari ships if its well tanked and has armor plating to last, with a full tackling fitting such as all scrams or webs or a combo of damps and scrams it is heavily cap dependent. Now currently a Pilgrim vs Raven fight reaches a key point when the raven is sapped for cap but the pilgrim has plenty to go and can outlast the hitpoints on the raven. With the new setup to kill his cap you have to have none yourself, shortly thereafter your mods will turn off and you may well die as the raven can last much longer on its HP than the pilgrim. 2 nos + 1 neut are simply insufficient to fully power the pilgrim for one and its a deadly setup because once the opponent runs out of cap your neut may keep going and drain you to the last ounce you have before you manage to turn it off. Also you are now totally vulnerable to someone throwing a neut onto you, especially at the wrong moment which means fairly instant death.

Was jamming a scorp yesterday while draining him and the fight went pretty well since his nos couldn't really counter mine when he could use it. If I didn't have plenty reserve cap whenever it hit I would have lost all power and this is precisely what will happen with this patch - once you hit low 1 heavy neut will decimate you instantly.

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You make some interesting points, and most ppl are saying that the Pilgrim is hit alot harder than the Curse, mainly because of its shorter range and bigger dependence on actually having to tank some damage.

All in all you are probably right. the Pilgrim as it is is finished as a an all-purpose EW platform. The 2 damps + burst ecm can't really be sustainable when used with one or two neuts simply because you'd need to cram a cap booster in there and you can't really remove anything from your mids without cripling you...

On the other hand, it still is a very good TD platform since you can use just 2 TDs without any problem and use the other mid-slot to fit in a cap booster.

Is this so wrong? That is up to CCP to decide I guess.

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Originally by: SleepyOSU

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I have read most of this thread, and I must say that there are a lot of good ideas here.
From a Gal background I am most interested in the nos Nerf.

I am glad to see that there are so many people here so passionate about improving the game and providing options to CCP, so that they don't make such a nos nerf that would be unfairly adversely affecting a selection of the population that has come to rely on this module to pvp.

I would like to see a post from CCP stating the following.

That they are reading every post that includes proof by summary of ideas offered; and the problems identified by players here and most importantly, what specifically is the goal they are trying to achieve.

And that they are using this information in consideration of the best option to achieve their goals and that they welcome further input, and that the currently proposed nerf is not to be expected as currently proposed.

And lastly, that they projected problems are addressed individually as to how the new projected changes have taken into consideration these problems.


My thoughts as of now...

I believe the best proposed resolution to date is, nos being limited to cap regen.
I think that to not penalize pilots with good regen skills that the limit should be calculated on non skilled regen (still including mods).

It still allows you to effectively drain out a target.
It still allows u to still use additional cap to tank.
and allows target to use injectors for regen for longer battles.

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Originally by: Gypsio III

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Quote:

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The only problem I have with that is this: If you just look at it as a TD platform, then it's essentially just an arbitrator that can cloak, and its Tech II bonus goes out the window.

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Which, in comparison to Falcon and Blackbird, makes it balanced perfectly. It's absurd that people are expecting a recon - especially the force recons! - to be able to solo battleships.

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Originally by: Borasao

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Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 16:25:29

Originally by: Slade Bolgard

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Originally by: Matroshka

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I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't.

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Fortunately you have about 29 pages of posts to study for your answer.

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90% are simply "I've trained lasers and I'm mad the ship doesn't have lasers. It's not 'true' Amarr. All Amarr ships are worthless now that these six were changed.".
5% are things along the lines of "HAM missles don't have enough range to really be effective".
and 4% are "HAMs don't make sense on the Damnation".
and 1% are folks mistakingly thinking that these changes are the "Amarr Boost" and not simply the "Khanid Unsuckification"

9% have actual arguments as to why the changes aren't adequate (not necessarily bad, just not far enough). 1% are just... off in their own world. And the other 90% is whine.

Hopefully, HAM missiles will get a slight adjustment in addition (hopefully in speed to increase the range to around 10-12k without skills so that they'll hit 20-24k with maxed skills, IMO).

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Originally by: E Vile

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I don't see what all the crying is about with Nos.
Now it just takes cap to suck cap dry.
Just mix in more neutralizers.

Personally I like the change. Now if you want to suck someone dry you need to risk having your own cap low.

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Originally by: Borasao

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The OP specifically mentions Khanid changes, not NOS changes. If the OP had mentioned NOS changes, the breakdown would have been different...

80% were people who trained Curse/Pilgrim because they were solopwnmobiles and are now mad at the change.
15% simply can't understand how to fly anything other than cookie cutter F1-F5 /afk pvp
5% are (legitimately, IMO) upset that the Pilgrim and some faction ships are screwed with these changes, but a change to the bonus from just NOS to NOS/NEUT will help those out but the Pilgrim is currently not salvagable in its current state and needs some serious help if these NOS changes go in.

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Originally by: William DeMeo

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Everyone is talking about small ships getting instadrained by nos's and they thus can't tackle. Well, um. How the hell else can you fend off a crow that does 15km/s? Interceptors can go insanely fast already and are basically impossible to kill unless they lag out or just plain suck. I think most people don't realise that for some people (Me) nos is your primary weapon. I don't fit any guns I fly with drones and nos, and the nos's I fit take just as much pg as any gun and they don't even do any damage. So I do **** dps, my dps can be killed (since I use drones)and I mean, come on. Learn to micromanage your cap goddamnit, thats a very importent skill especially when you're flying BS's. Wait until a nos cycle has gone by, boost and rep, wait again. I mean, if you're fighting a domi for the love of god use your brain and pop the damn drones. Same with curse, while they're hard to kill you can survive them if you keep your cool and pop those drones. It's not that hard if you think and actually learn how to fly your ship.

People sucking and then whining on the forums is destroying this game. It's sad to see CCP listening to them. Sure, nos is hard to fight. But so is any other equal size ship. People just don't realise how simple it is to counter nos and have your tank running for a long time, if you're caldari or minmatar you're even more lucky since you'll be doing some very nice dps without any cap what so ever. I've said it before I'm sure, but goddamnit people, l2p and stop whining. I'm sure people will be whining about nos after this patch as well, because it'll be alot more imbalanced and I can certainly see a passive drake fit a nos and then just let themselves run out of cap and thus drain their active tanked enemy straight out of cap.

Passive tanks are hard to fight
Nos is hard to fight
speed is hard to fight
damps are hard to fight.
And last but not least damage is hard to fight.

But it's not impossible if you got some brain power, use your brain and I'm sure you all will be alot more effective vs. nos boats.

Tbh CCP should listen less to the whiners as well, they're making the game less diverse and more static with every patch because people just can't learn how to beat certain setups. Kinda sad to see nos boats go, not that CCP will change it back but one can always hope. Next ten months I guess I'll have to train blaster skills (just to have blasters removed cuz they do sooo much damage it's impossible to tank!!111).

**** it.

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Originally by: Fager

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Originally by: Hammar Wolf

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Reiterating some points from discussion that I think should be emphasized to the Devs.

1.) Current Khanid changes do not function without changes to HAMs - almost everyone has agreed on that and these should be implemented simultaneously (range and damage)
2.) Khanid ships are not meant to be caldari ships with armor tanks, but should be viable and as good as in their own role. Currently it seems they are definitely different but not as viable meaning a sensible person would just fly caldari (bonuses should be rethought and made more applicable to other missile types)
3.) The Neuts need reworking if this NOS change is to be implemented (fitting requirements, duration).
4.) The Curse and the Pilgrim require serious attention. Namely the Pilgrim, which is now dead - I mean dead dead not "I think with enough cross-wiring it still works." Nobody here has yet tried to claim that the Pilgrim should not be self-destructed (including the Dev himself)

Personal points: the Dev's will regret this approach to the NOS change and I think its going to yield many negative consequences worse than the current situation.

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1)HAMs range is fine, dunno about dmg vs ordinary Heavies.HAMs suck on caldari slowboats, they will ROCKnROLL on the new sacrilage.
2)Most caldarians on these boards are debating on fittings for the sacrilage andplanning on training amarr cruiser 5. You amarrians can take our cerberus if ya want, just hand over those sacrilages!
Domination will now be the most heavies tanker of the fleetcommand ships. Not all about this is bad. Not to add that Domination gives Armor bonuses wich is the preffered PvP Tankversion.
3)CCP has stated they are looking into this. Perhaps ships made for these modules need some more fittingpossibilies instead of lowering the modules?
4)Curse seems to work according to testers. Pilgrim still has Cov-Op, Cyno(lol), TD and a nerfed neut/nos. PPL needing cov up will still use this over Curse. Its not DEAD, nerfed YES, DEAD not. To heavy nerfed perhaps but not DEAD.

Just pointing out why DEVs might not be lissening to your points up there...
Personal point: I think the DEVs made a smart move and will reap rewards in the future. The change bring some bad dead rats with it. But it fixes loads of other problems connectied with NOS, Amarr ships Cap are safer, Amarr ships are the best suited NEUTwarboats, Droneboats wont be EXTREEMLY hard to fight when they fit neuts instead of NOS. NOS still has GREAT use for anti-neutralizer or sustaining your heavy capusage ship. Some BS need to sacrifice more to fight small ships with neuts instead of NOS (sacrificing CAP and powergrid, instead of gaining cap and sacrificing more cpu). I can go on here...

/rant

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